Soft Skills For Hard Conversations With Abrasive Leaders with Bonnie Artman Fox

In the Season 2 finale of Soft Skills: Strong Results, I’m joined by Workplace Conflict Expert and Executive Leadership Coach Bonnie Artman Fox to explore strategies for handling difficult workplace interactions. You’re one click away from discovering how to identify abrasive behavior, address it constructively, and foster stronger, more productive relationships within your team.

Bonnie and I dive into the roots of abrasive behavior, highlighting how a lack of self-awareness and anxiety can manifest as harsh communication. We provide actionable advice on using soft skills such as emotional intelligence, empathy, and effective communication to navigate these challenging situations.

This conversation also focuses on having difficult conversations with team members, emphasizing the balance of compassion and firmness. Bonnie shares practical approaches for offering coaching and support while clearly communicating expectations, helping leaders address problematic behavior without damaging trust.

Finally, Bonnie and I discuss strategies for rebuilding trust and repairing relationships after conflict. You’ll walk away with concrete steps for developing self-awareness, empathy, emotional regulation, and constructive feedback skills to create a healthier and more collaborative workplace.

Key Takeaways:

• Abrasive behavior often stems from anxiety and lack of self-awareness rather than intentional malice. 
• Soft skills, including emotional intelligence and effective communication, are essential for workplace success. 
• Addressing difficult behaviors requires courage, structure, and a balance of compassion and firmness. 
• Focusing on behaviors rather than personal attacks helps maintain professionalism during challenging conversations. 
• Rebuilding trust involves consistent, objective feedback and support for change. 
• Practical strategies like self-reflection, empathy, and emotional regulation can transform workplace dynamics and team performance.

Pick up my book The Power Skills Portfolio: A Leader's Guide to Soft Skills

I'm here to help you master your soft skills and take your communication to the next level! Learn more at CharlieKrebs.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Soft Skills Strong Results. I'm your host, Charlie Krebs. You're about to learn practical strategies to master interpersonal communication. So let's get started. Good day. And welcome to Soft Skills Strong Results. Practical strategies to master interpersonal communication. This is season two, episode six, and my name is Charlie Krebs. I will be your host. Today our guest is going to be Bonnie Artman Fox. Thank you for being here, Bonnie. Thank you. Nice to see you.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I'm fascinated by your topic, coaching executives to handle abrasive managers. And we'll get into that in a few minutes. But to begin with, Bonnie is a workplace conflict expert and accredited boss whisperer. She takes messy team conflicts and brings teams together so they're more effective and productive. Can I just ask you to explain that to us? How did you get into this and what's it all about?

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Well, way back when, when I was working as a nurse, I was in a workplace that our leader was abrasive. I didn't understand that at the time. I just knew what it felt like every day to feel like we were walking on eggshells, never knowing when the emotional tirade would happen. And that led me to therapy, actually, uh, because I didn't know how to handle it. I loved the work, uh, but every day was so unpredictable about when we would be targeted. And that then led to one of the first questions that therapists asked was, Well, tell me how was conflict handled in your upbringing? And I thought, what does my family have to do with this? And she asked me several questions. And I realized that there was some parallel that eventually then led to me writing my book, How Did My Family Get in My Office? Um, but at that time, going to therapy helped me to navigate that situation. And then fast forward several years later, I then decided to go into specializing in coaching abrasive leaders because I knew the impact as an employee in that work setting, the toll, the emotional toll it takes on employees.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Well, I can only imagine that working with those people who are abused and working with the abusers, if you will, has to be very emotional and challenging. Do you do you find that soft skills play into that?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Uh for everybody, absolutely. That that is what the leader who exhibits abrasive behavior needs. What I have found now as a boss whisperer and the specialized coaching that I do to help leaders develop soft skills, interpersonal skills, is they genuinely lack self-awareness of how they come across. Their whole focus is getting results, focusing on the bottom line. And when anyone or anything interferes with them getting results, that's when their anxiety goes up and they defend with fight. And the coaching process of the boss whispering is to help them gain awareness of their anxiety and to work through that anxiety with interpersonal emotional intelligence skills.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Now, do you work more with the people that, for lack of a better word, are the abusees, or do you work more with the people who are the abusers?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

More with those who are abrasive. But of course, they're not looking for my services because they lack the awareness. They, they genuinely, it's like they have blinders on. They genuinely don't realize how they come across. So it is their manager, the executive leader, the small business owner, uh, the CEO who would contact me and say, we have a hype-performing leader, we value them, they contribute to great results and have expertise in our industry. At the same time, they're wreaking havoc on our culture. And we want to figure out a way to retain them and help them turn around these abrasive behaviors. And that's when I come in.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Well, and I would think not only are they wreaking havoc on the business, but the people that they're working for probably drop like flies.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Turnover is a big problem. Yes. And that's oftentimes why their manager will contact me because they're seeing turnover decreased productivity, the effect on morale from this high performer's abrasive behavior. And they're really in a dilemma. They recognize, okay, this can't go on because how my other employees are being treated at the same time, they don't want to lose that hype abrasive high performer's expertise. So that's where the coaching comes in. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Thank you for explaining all that. When working in a conflict resolution setup, do you find that there are certain fundamental keys that people need to understand to help resolve the conflict?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Well, it uh I'll answer it from the perspective of, again, working with the abrasive leader. Oftentimes the manager, or again, the small business owner, the CEO, whoever is managing the leader who's exhibiting the abrasive behavior, lacks the skills of having difficult conversations to address the abrasive behavior. And they're often afraid of retaliation. They're afraid of they they genuinely oftentimes don't know what to say. And so it's equipping them with the conflict skills of how to have difficult conversations. And then it's helping them with language suggestions of how to address the abrasive leader with compassion, with care, such as we value you, we want you here, and this behavior can't go on. We've talked to you before about this behavior and it keeps happening. We want to invest in you, and we want you're invited to work with a coach. What's clear is this behavior can't go on, and something will happen if the behavior doesn't improve. That is what is key for the abrasive leader to recognize whoa, this, this, they're serious here. And in many ways, I equipped the manager, the again, CEO, executive level, with strengthening their backbone of how to have those difficult conversations and follow through on those consequences if the leader doesn't turn around the abrasive behavior. What's common is the leaders may improve for a while on their own without a coach. However, because they often genuinely lack the interpersonal skills, they're not able to sustain improvement. And that's where, again, the coaching comes in to help them develop those emotional intelligence soft skills and also to have the humility to receive the feedback. And they give me permission to interview their coworkers and I develop a feedback summary, taking out all identifying information. And in sharing that feedback summary with them, that's when the blinders are lifted. And they say, Wow, I had no idea this is how I came across that this is how people perceive me. This isn't who I want to be.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Why do you think they're not aware of how they're coming across?

SPEAKER_00 7:52

The lack of self-awareness. And oftentimes it deep down inside, these are behaviors that were modeled to them in their upbringing. And they just learned this is this is how to get results, or this is how they were treated. It may also be in a work setting that they were in and they saw people succeed, and they, okay, this is how I'm going to get results and climb the corporate ladder. And so it's been modeled to them in some way. And um, again, the focus is on getting results and at the expense of no matter how they treat people, they want to focus on getting those bottom line results.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So you talked about equipping people with the language to stand up for themselves. I know I resist having, like, if I have a conflict with somebody, I'll resist saying something because I don't want to hurt their feelings. So, how do you, like in a situation like that, if I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings, but yet they're making me angry? What do I say? How do I get how do I grow the backbone?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah. That's the conversation that I will have with the manager, the person who has the authority to address the abrasive behavior. And oftentimes they say the same thing. I'm so afraid of hurting their feelings. I don't want to lose their expertise. I, and they're honest. I don't want to lose the revenue that they help generate for the organization. Uh, sometimes they're also afraid of how this person will perceive it from a mental health perspective. Uh, they tend to be very uh compassionate. They say, well, they're going through a tough time or they're going through a divorce. And uh, I don't want to address this with them right now. They have a decision to make because in the meantime, by not addressing it, then it's taking a toll on their other employees. So what to say? It's again going back to what I said earlier is we've talked about this before. This behavior continues. We care about you, we want to invest in you, we believe in you, and this behavior can't go on. We want to invite you to work with a coach. Um, they I encourage these leaders also to be vulnerable and sharing. I've worked with a coach, if if that's true, and it's helped me to recognize blind spots. And I want to help you to succeed. I don't want this to hold you back. So it's really done with both that caring compassion and that strength of a backbone.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, I find it interesting that you use the word compassion, because if I'm upset with somebody, the last thing I have for them is probably compassion. So, so that's a transition. How do you help somebody learn to have compassion for somebody that's abrasive? And I apologize I used the word abusive before, but how do you coach somebody to have compassion for someone who's treating them abrasively?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Well, again, I'm I'm speaking more so right now with the manager. And oftentimes they are at their wit's end. Uh they have been putting out fires to deal with this employee. Uh, they've received multiple complaints from their other employees, and they are very frustrated. And again, they're in that dilemma. I don't want to lose this person. Uh, so it's helping educate them about how abrasive leaders lack the self-awareness and to help them, this is and and helping them develop emotional intelligence. And as we know, the foundation of emotional intelligence is self-awareness, that they lack that self-awareness. And this is really investing in them and in a caring way, helping them to see what they genuinely don't see.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Do you find that some of the improvements that people show after going through coaching with you and everything have unexpected results in other areas?

SPEAKER_00 11:52

There's uh well, the coaching program itself has an 82% success rate of helping leaders turn around these negative perceptions about their leadership communication style and develop emotional intelligence. Um, so that in and of itself is really so rewarding. Usually by the end of the third session, there is improvement. Now, I mentioned earlier that I do the coworker interviews, I develop the feedback summary, share that with the leader, and that becomes our playbook for the coaching. About three or four months later, after uh several coaching sessions, then I circle back and interview those same coworkers and develop another, I called a pulse check feedback summary. And usually the coworkers who I'm now speaking to for the second time about their current perceptions of the leader's behavior will say, I'm having a very different conversation with you than we did a few months ago. And because of the changes I'm seeing in this leader, I'm now more aware of how I'm coming across and my tone of voice and my communication. So there's a ripple effect within the organization. The leader, the high performer themselves that I'm doing the coaching with will often tell me how their relationships at home with their partner, with their spouse, with their children is improving. Uh, so it's it's such rewarding work and has that positive ripple effect both in the organization and in the family.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Wow. Do you find that post-COVID you've seen an increase in abrasive behavior?

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Uh, I think it's been there for a long time. Again, my experience of it, you know, we went way back to the 90s when I was very early in my career. Um, yes, uh, for a myriad of reasons, uh abrasive behavior, incivility, bullying has increased. And just a caveat here about bullying that's different from how I describe abrasive behavior. Bullies tend to have a target and intend to do harm. Abrasive individuals genuinely anybody or anything that is perceived as a threat is where they get defensive. They aren't necessarily intending to do harm or have a target. It's their the the threat of appearing incompetent is what triggers them. And that's when they defend with fight.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

So you're saying that they're not initially malicious.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

It may come across that way. Right. And the impact of the behaviors is similar to a bullying behavior versus abrasive. Um as I work with people who are genuinely, there's I find that distinction. And once the blinders are lifted, when they get the feedback summary, there is a genuine earnestness to develop empathy and tact and consideration of others. Bullies tend not to have that motivation.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So are you saying that when you're working with these people that could be considered abrasive, is there, for lack of a better word, do they have a come to Jesus moment?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

That's at the end of the feedback summary. Yes. Yes. And how how do they react to that? The I I had no idea. This isn't who I want to be. I I want to turn this around.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

That's great. So you're making a difference not only in these people's lives, but in the lives of the people they work with and in the culture of their business.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yes, and their families.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

And their families, right. I love that. I wouldn't have expected to hear that. You know, but I I I guess it makes sense if if their their abrasive behavior started somewhere. You know? I would imagine that in working in this kind of situation, that trust is a big factor. Oh, yes. How do you define trust?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

To know that what is said is going to be confidential, that behavior is consistent from one day to the next. Oftentimes the coworkers that the leader gives me permission to interview will say the trust is low because I never know from one day to the next who's going to show up, what kind of mood they're going to be in. We can tell when they walk in the door what kind of mood they're in. And so the trust is very low. The trust is also low in terms of employees' fear of speaking up with ideas or uh their point of view, because their their experience is that the leader who's exhibiting the abrasive behavior, it's not unusual to go from zero to 10 in a matter of seconds if things don't go their way, um, to publicly humiliate um in front of a team meeting to call people names, call them stupid. That's a stupid idea. Uh so as you can imagine, those types of behaviors would decrease trust. So, in many ways, as we're going through coaching, they're motivated because now they have this feedback summary of this is how people really perceive me, is their work is repairing relationships, is repairing the trust.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

So the person that would be considered abrasive, at some point they have to learn to trust you. Yes. And and what if they're not a trusting person? How do you bridge that?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Oh, excellent question. Because uh, they don't. You know, they like, who are you? And and I present myself as uh a co-worker, excuse me, a their co-researcher. So uh I say, uh, I don't work here, I don't know what's been going on. Would you give me permission to research what are these negative perceptions about how you communicate with people, your leadership style? And then we together will look at the feedback that I receive and help you develop strategies to turn around these negative perceptions. So that's and also that works hand in hand with knowing their manager has brought me in. And they also know something is going to happen if they don't turn things around. So there's there's a trust in that the their employer wants to help retain them. This isn't about getting rid of them. I also share with them when I compile the feedback summary, I only share this with the individual. This doesn't go to HR, this doesn't go to your boss, to anybody in the organization. Who you choose to share it with is is up to you. But this is really between you and I to help you turn around these negative perceptions. And I want to help you succeed.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

And is that information kept anonymous?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

The information in the feedback summary, I take out all identifying information that the coworkers have shared with me. I break the feedback summary down into their strengths. We certainly want to emphasize our strengths, and then themes of the negative perceptions. For example, poor mood management. And then there'll be examples of what people have objectively told me that don't tie back to any individual of how they yelled during a meeting, or people are afraid to s to speak up because of how they've seen other people treated by this person.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Now, I would think working in a situation like this, you're you're dealing with a lot of negative emotions and a lot of challenging situations. But yet I get the sense that you find this very rewarding. Very much. Why?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Because I see the power of the process. I'm an accredited boss whisper. This is a model, a coaching model that is very specialized in working with leaders who exhibit abrasive behavior. And I stand on the 82% success rate that change is possible. And I want to convey hope for people because what I have found is they genuinely lack the self-awareness. And if they had the ability to turn around these negative perceptions, they would have by now. And I really want to equip them to be successful in life and go on to have a fulfilling career. And that's what their organization wants for them as well. Uh, so it's it's although it's hard for them to hear in the beginning, it's very positive, it's very hopeful and um an opportunity to grow.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Are there other soft skills that you use a lot in your work?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Definitely about curiosity, asking questions to understand, and uh uh uh assuming a positive intent, being able to be a really, really good listener and equipping the leader to listen. Oftentimes the leader is so quick at, all right, let's just move on, let's get this done. And and oftentimes they have the strategy in their minds, but they're not always good at our articulating it with their team. So helping them to slow down and manage their emotional reactivity, we do a lot of breath work, a lot of grounding to calm down their nervous system so that they can. Can stay present and be non-reactive and build their emotional resilience.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Well, when I talk to a lot of people, I find that some people resist soft skills. They don't understand them or whatever. They find them touchy-feely. So how do you, how would you help someone if they're one of those people that think of soft skills as too touchy-feely? How would you convince them they're not touchy-feely? They're very foundational.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Gratefully, there's a lot of research, more and more, that is showing the benefit of soft skills and interpersonal skills in achieving bottom line results. I also just know from what my clients tell me is it feels different around here. It I see the smiles on people's faces. I hear people laughing. I hear people ask about their personal life and how their kids are doing or what they did on the weekend. I hear people say, How can I help you? There's that's something that can't necessarily be measured. It's felt. It also shows up in the morale, increased retention of employees who were going to walk out the door, who now see the change in this leader. Also, it's fascinating. Employees as well as a leader tell me my um the appreciation that they have for their employer to intervene and offer help for the leader to develop interpersonal emotional intelligence skills and also to protect employees from how they were being treated, the employer's credibility goes up. And that there is a positivity to that too, in terms of increasing employee satisfaction and employee retention.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Well, and I would think the employer would be happy to see the conflict get resolved. But it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is that there's an added benefit in that it's got this propulsion on its own to move the organization forward. Would that be would that be fair to say? Yes. How would you how would you quantify or qualify that?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Well, they do with increased retention, that uh increased productivity, increase collaboration, um, improve bottom line results. So there's there's the proof is in the puddin, as my grandpa used to say, that we see it in how people interact with each other. And how people interact with each other is just as important as the work and how the work gets done. And even more so than, yes, we have results that we're going for. If people aren't getting along, if there's backbiting, if there's people are afraid of speaking up for fear of the name-calling, the public humiliation, there won't be productivity. There won't be collaboration, and that will affect the bottom line.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Now, by the time someone brings you in, it's clearly a bad situation. What recommendations could you give to people so that it never gets to them?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Helping the manager, the person who has authority over employees, the boss, the CEO, to have a culture of setting clear expectations of a respectful professional work environment and being willing to speak up and intervene as soon as abrasive behavior, disrespectful behavior shows up, and simply saying something to the effect of that's not how we treat each other around here. That's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

When I think if you would start that at the beginning and let people know that that's the expectation and nurture that along the way, ideally it will never get to the point where they'd have to have some kind of intervention like you would bring in.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

And that starts with the executive team. How the executive team, the leaders of the organization treat each other is key with the behaviors that filter down into the organization. If there are problems with the executive team being disrespectful, um, abrasive to each other, that's going to affect the whole culture. So it's also for, again, the executive team, the exec the CEO to be willing to look in the mirror and say, what am I modeling? How am I showing up? What behaviors am I tolerating? What behaviors am I allowing that is defining how we treat each other around?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

When that goes back to self-awareness, they have to be willing to be self-aware. And that's not always an easy thing to do because, you know, we want to see ourselves in the best light possible. And so I think it takes a certain amount of courage to look in that mirror.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

It does. In my book, uh, How Did My Family Get in My Office, it's a compilation of stories of how leaders gain self-awareness of how conflict was handled in their upbringing and impacted their leadership style and specifically how they handle conflict in the workplace. And I I share their story, which I was so honored they shared with vulnerability and transparency, some really tough things. And they also shared how they turned around their conflict style for the better. And as I was analyzing all of these different stories, I wanted to know how did they do it? How did because it does, it takes courage. And I came upon this word. It's a real word in the dictionary. Her tenacity.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

I saw you wrote, yes. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

It's it means the persistence and tenacity, sticking with what's difficult no matter what. And it requires courage, conviction, and a little bit of stubbornness. That's what I find is needed to have difficult conversations, to address abrasive behavior, to have the courage to have the backbone and the inner personal courage to say, yes, I uh you are a high performer. You get great results with the organization. We're not talking about your performance here. We're talking about how you treat people. We're talking about your conduct that isn't acceptable. And for the leader, the manager of the abrasive high performer to have that conversation takes pertinacity. It takes pertinacity for the leader exhibiting abrasive behavior to read this feedback summary. And as you can imagine, that's a tough conversation and very humbling. And then the pertinacity to turn around those negative perceptions.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Well, not only is this fascinating, but I would think it's a very it's very valuable in so many ways. So if someone wanted to get a hold of you to find out more about this, how would they do that, Bonnie?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Uh, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. And my website is Bonnieartmanfox.com.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Bonnieartmanfox.com.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

On my website, I do have uh an opt-in for them to receive a downloads called Transform Conflict, and it's a blueprint for executives of how to address abrasive behavior with um their top talent.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Well, very helpful. Bonnie, thank you so much. I learned a lot here today. I appreciate it. That was great. Thank you. And thank you all for being here today. Thanks for joining us on Soft Skills Strong Results. I'm Charlie Krebs, and remember that soft skills are the human side of success. Thank you. Thank you for listening today. Be sure to check out other episodes in the catalog and join me at charliekrebs.com to find out how I can help you strengthen your interpersonal communication skills. If you like what you heard in the podcast, check out my new book. It's called The Power Skills Portfolio A Leader's Guide to Soft Skills. You can find the link in the show notes.